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	<title>Comments on: Brainwashing?  (or, why do Marines stay Marines forever)</title>
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	<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/</link>
	<description>A journey to full awareness.</description>
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		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-15946</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-15946</guid>
		<description>This was well put. as a marine myself i&#039;d have to say it&#039;s different for everyone. . you may not be brainwashed but some are. you just took all the right things the marines have to offer, and also kept your own mind. which is great. kudos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was well put. as a marine myself i&#8217;d have to say it&#8217;s different for everyone. . you may not be brainwashed but some are. you just took all the right things the marines have to offer, and also kept your own mind. which is great. kudos.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11881</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 02:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11881</guid>
		<description>Your loyalty to the group that gave you the ability to perceive yourself via its disciplinary ethic I admire.  That disciplinary ethic the military instills in the individual is what can provide anyone true freedom -- even from self.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your loyalty to the group that gave you the ability to perceive yourself via its disciplinary ethic I admire.  That disciplinary ethic the military instills in the individual is what can provide anyone true freedom &#8212; even from self.</p>
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		<title>By: Grady Philpott</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11492</link>
		<dc:creator>Grady Philpott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11492</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a former Marine and I agree with you completely.  

Those here who speak of a lack of self respect or of a lack of individuality have no idea of what those two things mean, because they have never belonged to something greater than themselves.

They don&#039;t know what it means to be a member of a great team of patriots and at the same time to not only respect oneself, but to respect one&#039;s own individuality.

Individuality is worthless if it cannot be subjugated at the right moment in the interest of the greater good and without self respect that would be impossible.

I feel sorry for those here who have responded so negatively, but their cluelessness only makes me more proud to have been and to still be a United States Marine.

Semper Fidelis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a former Marine and I agree with you completely.  </p>
<p>Those here who speak of a lack of self respect or of a lack of individuality have no idea of what those two things mean, because they have never belonged to something greater than themselves.</p>
<p>They don&#8217;t know what it means to be a member of a great team of patriots and at the same time to not only respect oneself, but to respect one&#8217;s own individuality.</p>
<p>Individuality is worthless if it cannot be subjugated at the right moment in the interest of the greater good and without self respect that would be impossible.</p>
<p>I feel sorry for those here who have responded so negatively, but their cluelessness only makes me more proud to have been and to still be a United States Marine.</p>
<p>Semper Fidelis.</p>
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		<title>By: Wheeler,H</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11456</link>
		<dc:creator>Wheeler,H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11456</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a Marine yet and I beleve serve your friends, family, country. I have no problem with Marines. Carrie is one of my best friends. She&#039;s a Marine and I&#039;m proud of her!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a Marine yet and I beleve serve your friends, family, country. I have no problem with Marines. Carrie is one of my best friends. She&#8217;s a Marine and I&#8217;m proud of her!!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11125</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 02:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11125</guid>
		<description>lol

My desire was... to not have to go to college for a while AND not go back to work.  That and to &#039;see&#039; if I&#039;d like being in the military &#039;fill time&#039; since I was taking some ROTC classes... which would soon ask if I was willing to &#039;sign&#039; to be an officer.  Since the officer commitment was a lot longer than a four year tour... did the enlisted thing first to &#039;get a fell&#039;..... that and not work or go to school.

Duh.. Universe has grand sense of humor.  :-)   
After basic, was sent to linguistics school for a year;  and additional training for another nine months after that.  So much for &#039;getting out of school&#039; for a while.   DID get exposure to many places and many people and a lot of officers... from fresh lieutenants to multi-starred generals.  Some good, some fair, some ... well, should not have been officers to start with.  Same for the enlisted ranks too.

After four years.. decided it was &#039;time&#039; to go back and get a degree... and then decided if I wanted to &#039;come back in&#039;.   Military did serve my purpose in one or two ways.  After serving four years, it helped to pay for my final college years.  Did travel &#039;around the world&#039;.. though not as much as I should have.  Could have taken lots more mini-trips throughout Europe and the Med.  Never did make it to NZ or Australia or Japan... maybe someday.  

Still... never had an urge to &#039;dominate&#039;.. or that &#039;being in the military&#039; was somehow &#039;empowering&#039; over others or dehumanizing to &#039;us&#039; who lived pretty normal lives.. even for wearing non-designer green suits.   Even when I &#039;climbed the ranks&#039;... it was due to my knowledge, experience, and ability to express myself intelligently as much as &#039;been there; done that (more than once)&#039; as compared to the &#039;new kids&#039; who came after.  

Not a lot of &#039;chest beating&#039; past basic.    Normally, the ones who are &#039;into&#039; the whole idea of violence and dominance either  &#039;get an education&#039; during boot thanks to experienced drill sergeants (who have heard and seen most of &#039;it all&#039;) or from their fellow compatriots, who soon mature enough to see how stupid &#039;monkey macho displays&#039;.    By the time a couple of years had gone by, I met very very few who were that way.

Now, when I went to Turkey and stayed at an air base..... there were a couple of hot shot jet fighter pilots who were all full of themselves.  But, that&#039;s sort of the &#039;nature of the beast&#039; for jet fighter pilots of that time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol</p>
<p>My desire was&#8230; to not have to go to college for a while AND not go back to work.  That and to &#8217;see&#8217; if I&#8217;d like being in the military &#8216;fill time&#8217; since I was taking some ROTC classes&#8230; which would soon ask if I was willing to &#8217;sign&#8217; to be an officer.  Since the officer commitment was a lot longer than a four year tour&#8230; did the enlisted thing first to &#8216;get a fell&#8217;&#8230;.. that and not work or go to school.</p>
<p>Duh.. Universe has grand sense of humor.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
After basic, was sent to linguistics school for a year;  and additional training for another nine months after that.  So much for &#8216;getting out of school&#8217; for a while.   DID get exposure to many places and many people and a lot of officers&#8230; from fresh lieutenants to multi-starred generals.  Some good, some fair, some &#8230; well, should not have been officers to start with.  Same for the enlisted ranks too.</p>
<p>After four years.. decided it was &#8216;time&#8217; to go back and get a degree&#8230; and then decided if I wanted to &#8216;come back in&#8217;.   Military did serve my purpose in one or two ways.  After serving four years, it helped to pay for my final college years.  Did travel &#8216;around the world&#8217;.. though not as much as I should have.  Could have taken lots more mini-trips throughout Europe and the Med.  Never did make it to NZ or Australia or Japan&#8230; maybe someday.  </p>
<p>Still&#8230; never had an urge to &#8216;dominate&#8217;.. or that &#8216;being in the military&#8217; was somehow &#8216;empowering&#8217; over others or dehumanizing to &#8216;us&#8217; who lived pretty normal lives.. even for wearing non-designer green suits.   Even when I &#8216;climbed the ranks&#8217;&#8230; it was due to my knowledge, experience, and ability to express myself intelligently as much as &#8216;been there; done that (more than once)&#8217; as compared to the &#8216;new kids&#8217; who came after.  </p>
<p>Not a lot of &#8216;chest beating&#8217; past basic.    Normally, the ones who are &#8216;into&#8217; the whole idea of violence and dominance either  &#8216;get an education&#8217; during boot thanks to experienced drill sergeants (who have heard and seen most of &#8216;it all&#8217;) or from their fellow compatriots, who soon mature enough to see how stupid &#8216;monkey macho displays&#8217;.    By the time a couple of years had gone by, I met very very few who were that way.</p>
<p>Now, when I went to Turkey and stayed at an air base&#8230;.. there were a couple of hot shot jet fighter pilots who were all full of themselves.  But, that&#8217;s sort of the &#8216;nature of the beast&#8217; for jet fighter pilots of that time.</p>
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		<title>By: butchjax</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11121</link>
		<dc:creator>butchjax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 20:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11121</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have any greater sense to dominate due to the Marine Corps.  And, it&#039;s something that I&#039;m very aware of and work to control, as I have all my life.  But surprisingly enough, I really don&#039;t have much of a desire to dominate at all.  I don&#039;t have the urge to fight, I don&#039;t have the desire to fight people, physically or even verbally.  I&#039;m a very non-confrontational person by nature.  Even in all my years of karate I didn&#039;t enjoy trying to win.  Physically sparring was always about testing my ability to find openings - never about dominating the other person.  

I don&#039;t think you know me half as well as you think you do.  But, I only put so much information on this, in a small window of time in my life.  

And what you see as people surrendering power, we all see differently.  I see it as having gained more power through the skills I gained, and what I learned about myself.  I am far stronger mentally and emotionally for my experiences.  Yes, I had to go through some rough patches to gain that strength, but that&#039;s what was necessary for me to come into my own and find my power.  It&#039;s what a lot of people need to find themselves, which is why they go that route.  There&#039;s no one route to self discovery and empowerment.  You need to remember that.  Yes, you have some good information to pass along to people, and an understanding of your path and how it works.  But you forget that your path does not apply to everyone.  It&#039;s something I have to constantly remind myself of too.  It&#039;s easy to think that your way is the right way, because it was for you.  But when you really listen to people, you can see that it isn&#039;t the only way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have any greater sense to dominate due to the Marine Corps.  And, it&#8217;s something that I&#8217;m very aware of and work to control, as I have all my life.  But surprisingly enough, I really don&#8217;t have much of a desire to dominate at all.  I don&#8217;t have the urge to fight, I don&#8217;t have the desire to fight people, physically or even verbally.  I&#8217;m a very non-confrontational person by nature.  Even in all my years of karate I didn&#8217;t enjoy trying to win.  Physically sparring was always about testing my ability to find openings &#8211; never about dominating the other person.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you know me half as well as you think you do.  But, I only put so much information on this, in a small window of time in my life.  </p>
<p>And what you see as people surrendering power, we all see differently.  I see it as having gained more power through the skills I gained, and what I learned about myself.  I am far stronger mentally and emotionally for my experiences.  Yes, I had to go through some rough patches to gain that strength, but that&#8217;s what was necessary for me to come into my own and find my power.  It&#8217;s what a lot of people need to find themselves, which is why they go that route.  There&#8217;s no one route to self discovery and empowerment.  You need to remember that.  Yes, you have some good information to pass along to people, and an understanding of your path and how it works.  But you forget that your path does not apply to everyone.  It&#8217;s something I have to constantly remind myself of too.  It&#8217;s easy to think that your way is the right way, because it was for you.  But when you really listen to people, you can see that it isn&#8217;t the only way.</p>
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		<title>By: Sue Ann Edwards</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11120</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue Ann Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 20:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11120</guid>
		<description>Hoorah for surrendering of power!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoorah for surrendering of power!</p>
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		<title>By: Sue Ann Edwards</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11119</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue Ann Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 20:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11119</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the question...

How much of what you Valued and give meaning to...

is directly associated with your emotional NEED to physically DOMINATE?

For the emotional NEED to DOMINATE expresses inner weakness and surrender of POWER over Reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the question&#8230;</p>
<p>How much of what you Valued and give meaning to&#8230;</p>
<p>is directly associated with your emotional NEED to physically DOMINATE?</p>
<p>For the emotional NEED to DOMINATE expresses inner weakness and surrender of POWER over Reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11104</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 05:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11104</guid>
		<description>One meets &#039;all kinds&#039; in the military.  While in the army, I had a roomie who was straght out of high school and a natural athlete.  His &#039;world&#039; had expanded from his hometown to &#039;the world&#039; after training and being in Europe.  Another roomie was a four year college man working toward a specialty in Art Restoration -- always cool to come in at the end of the day and see one whole wall turned into a mural depicting a scene from the Civil War.  Third roomie was a smoker and a doper.   Work week, he was squared away and in top shape -- weekends (while off duty) he was the most laid back &#039;dude&#039; one would meet.    And those were all &#039;roomies&#039; and not the other 300 folks who helped make our little corner of the world operate... cooks, mechanics, first termers and lifers.

More personalities and individuals than you can shake a stick at... and nearly all (ya, we did have some real slackers at times who hated what the army was about as soon as they signed up... most of those were not happy anywhere they were ((and some were told to join or go to jail.  Some of *those* turned their lives around.. and some spent more time in the military jails))) 

... practically all had healthy views of themselves, where they wanted to go after their tour and many had college and more planned out for their time &#039;after serving&#039;.

Volunteering is not an abdication of &#039;self&#039; to the system.  They do ask for strict codes of conduct and would prefer immediate responses at times (hard to explain to someone who gets their head blown off while arguing  --  the &#039;merits&#039; of hitting the dirt.  In those cases, they are expected to &#039;do it&#039; based on the trust of those who have &#039;walked those roads before&#039; and lived to tell the tale.)        On the other hand, points of view, logic, and smart discussion were always welcome when attacking tasks;  pre-planning missions; and general &#039;how to do things smarter and not harder&#039;.

As Jax said, no different than most job environments.. except you can&#039;t get pissed and walk away or not like it one morning and &#039;quit&#039; (well, not easily).   It takes the notion of &#039;committment&#039; and holding to the promise, contract,  and oath one swore upon entering... to serve and protect;  uphold the honor of the service;  &#039;on call&#039; 24/7;   to protect the peoples of the United States and uphold the Constitution.   

No zombies take that oath who willing give of their time and life to honor that duty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One meets &#8216;all kinds&#8217; in the military.  While in the army, I had a roomie who was straght out of high school and a natural athlete.  His &#8216;world&#8217; had expanded from his hometown to &#8216;the world&#8217; after training and being in Europe.  Another roomie was a four year college man working toward a specialty in Art Restoration &#8212; always cool to come in at the end of the day and see one whole wall turned into a mural depicting a scene from the Civil War.  Third roomie was a smoker and a doper.   Work week, he was squared away and in top shape &#8212; weekends (while off duty) he was the most laid back &#8216;dude&#8217; one would meet.    And those were all &#8216;roomies&#8217; and not the other 300 folks who helped make our little corner of the world operate&#8230; cooks, mechanics, first termers and lifers.</p>
<p>More personalities and individuals than you can shake a stick at&#8230; and nearly all (ya, we did have some real slackers at times who hated what the army was about as soon as they signed up&#8230; most of those were not happy anywhere they were ((and some were told to join or go to jail.  Some of *those* turned their lives around.. and some spent more time in the military jails))) </p>
<p>&#8230; practically all had healthy views of themselves, where they wanted to go after their tour and many had college and more planned out for their time &#8216;after serving&#8217;.</p>
<p>Volunteering is not an abdication of &#8217;self&#8217; to the system.  They do ask for strict codes of conduct and would prefer immediate responses at times (hard to explain to someone who gets their head blown off while arguing  &#8212;  the &#8216;merits&#8217; of hitting the dirt.  In those cases, they are expected to &#8216;do it&#8217; based on the trust of those who have &#8216;walked those roads before&#8217; and lived to tell the tale.)        On the other hand, points of view, logic, and smart discussion were always welcome when attacking tasks;  pre-planning missions; and general &#8216;how to do things smarter and not harder&#8217;.</p>
<p>As Jax said, no different than most job environments.. except you can&#8217;t get pissed and walk away or not like it one morning and &#8216;quit&#8217; (well, not easily).   It takes the notion of &#8216;committment&#8217; and holding to the promise, contract,  and oath one swore upon entering&#8230; to serve and protect;  uphold the honor of the service;  &#8216;on call&#8217; 24/7;   to protect the peoples of the United States and uphold the Constitution.   </p>
<p>No zombies take that oath who willing give of their time and life to honor that duty.</p>
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		<title>By: butchjax</title>
		<link>http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11096</link>
		<dc:creator>butchjax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butchjax.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/brainwashing-or-why-do-marines-stay-marines-forever/#comment-11096</guid>
		<description>Abuse is perceived.  I have found peace for all the negative aspects.  Therefore there are no repercussions, as I have moved beyond them.  I&#039;m quite surprised that you are so insistent on this.  Remember, you don&#039;t actually know.  You think you know, but you don&#039;t.  You don&#039;t know me, you don&#039;t know my experiences, you don&#039;t know what actually happens on a day to day basis in the military because there is no one experience.  I can think of many worse experiences that people don&#039;t consider to be worse in the normal civilian world.  I know that I don&#039;t know, but it sure sounds like you have a strong bias against something that you think you understand, but don&#039;t.  Yes, in theory, what you&#039;re saying is true.  But that&#039;s not the reality of the situation.  But, as many times as I&#039;ve tried to speak about reality, it doesn&#039;t matter, so it doesn&#039;t seem like you care about reality, just your perception of how horribly evil the military is, without considering that there are many other experiences within the military.  But that&#039;s fine, everyone has their blind spots, this is clearly one of yours.  

Loquacious, you&#039;re very right.  There are so many different kinds of people in the military.  I don&#039;t think civilians realize that.  I&#039;ve met some of the most amazing people in the Corps, and wouldn&#039;t give that experience up for anything.  I also met some assholes.  Just like anywhere else.  

I hope you&#039;re doing alright.  Haven&#039;t stopped by your blog for a while due to my own time constraints.  I&#039;ll have to do that when I&#039;m not working overtime.  Take care!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abuse is perceived.  I have found peace for all the negative aspects.  Therefore there are no repercussions, as I have moved beyond them.  I&#8217;m quite surprised that you are so insistent on this.  Remember, you don&#8217;t actually know.  You think you know, but you don&#8217;t.  You don&#8217;t know me, you don&#8217;t know my experiences, you don&#8217;t know what actually happens on a day to day basis in the military because there is no one experience.  I can think of many worse experiences that people don&#8217;t consider to be worse in the normal civilian world.  I know that I don&#8217;t know, but it sure sounds like you have a strong bias against something that you think you understand, but don&#8217;t.  Yes, in theory, what you&#8217;re saying is true.  But that&#8217;s not the reality of the situation.  But, as many times as I&#8217;ve tried to speak about reality, it doesn&#8217;t matter, so it doesn&#8217;t seem like you care about reality, just your perception of how horribly evil the military is, without considering that there are many other experiences within the military.  But that&#8217;s fine, everyone has their blind spots, this is clearly one of yours.  </p>
<p>Loquacious, you&#8217;re very right.  There are so many different kinds of people in the military.  I don&#8217;t think civilians realize that.  I&#8217;ve met some of the most amazing people in the Corps, and wouldn&#8217;t give that experience up for anything.  I also met some assholes.  Just like anywhere else.  </p>
<p>I hope you&#8217;re doing alright.  Haven&#8217;t stopped by your blog for a while due to my own time constraints.  I&#8217;ll have to do that when I&#8217;m not working overtime.  Take care!</p>
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