Brainwashing? (or, why do Marines stay Marines forever)
17 October 2007 — butchjaxCarrie and I got in a bit of a disagreement the other day. The details aren’t necessary (because it wouldn’t make much sense), but I did come to a conscious understanding finally of why Marines remain Marines forever. It isn’t brainwashing, as some would like to believe. I am very aware of the negative aspects of the Marine Corps, and how slow the Marine Corps can be in doing the right thing socially. I’m also aware of our proud history and the understanding that the world would not be the same without the Marine Corps. That’s not bravado, that’s fact. However, that isn’t why I am proud to be a Marine. It’s not why I choose to keep it in my life.
You see, the people that I know that keep the Marine Corps in their life do so because of how being a Marine makes them a better person. This will be different for everyone. For me, being a Marine inspires me to do just a little more than I would otherwise. It motivates me to get off my lazy ass and do what needs to be done. It is was pushes me to work when I’d rather do nothing - because that’s what a Marine does. I choose to keep the best parts of the Marine Corps in my life, not because I was brainwashed, but because it made me a better person. I think the reason people can’t fully leave it behind is because they know that, for better or worse, there are some definite benefits to becoming a Marine. And that is what we hold onto. It’s in any human’s best interest to keep those things that make them a better person. That is what is instilled in Marines.
So maybe that isn’t so groundbreaking now that I write it out, but when it came to me the other day, it finally made sense. Maybe for those who aren’t Marines, but who love Marines can now understand a bit more why we are the way we are. I doesn’t explain everything, that’s for sure. But it hopefully sheds a little light on the mysterious heart of the United States Marine.
18 October 2007 at 13:14
One thing I noticed about all inductions into the service, is that in order to stand for it, we have to be completely lacking in Self Respect for our own individuality.
18 October 2007 at 13:15
Ask yourself, “what kind of identity to you have, that is not DEPENDENT on being a member of a group?
18 October 2007 at 13:18
From an outside perspective, sure. But from experience, that isn’t the case. I maintained my individuality just fine. It’s the outside of the individuality that changes, but not the inside. And that’s where the self truly lies. All that outside stuff is pretty irrelevent. What I needed to do was think of how my actions affected the group, rather than just me. I also had to learn to listen to others who had more knowledge and understanding than myself. This was important for me to do. Being such a strong person with strong sense of self, it was valuable to put this aside and follow someone. Thankfully the people I had to follow I willingly followed because they were outstanding Marines. And those that weren’t, out in the fleet, I got into a bit of trouble with. But that’s ok. What Marine doesn’t get in trouble? lol
So, while I understand what you’re saying, that really isn’t the case. Unless someone wants it to be. But that’s also voluntary.
18 October 2007 at 13:34
Who I am doesn’t depend on the group. The true sense of self is that which remains no matter what group you are a part of, or whether you’re on an isolated island all by yourself. That’s why I say the self doesn’t go anywhere. Instead you choose to take on another aspect of your identity, to expand the self to incorporate new aspects. Like I said, I have kept those things that I view as positive and that improve me as a person. Those are the things that I call my Marine self that I keep around and am discussing here.
I think it’s easy for people who haven’t experienced the military to judge it as a negative thing. Like I said, there are good and bad aspects, but I don’t think I lost any part of myself there. And anything that was lost or gained was done voluntarily on my part. It was a decision I made. No one is forced into the military, and no one is forced to be a mindless zombie. The Marine Corps isn’t trying to create them either. I can’t speak for other branches, as they are different, but the Marine Corps expects people to become leaders very quickly. That involves thinking for yourself, in addition to following orders from above. And even following orders requires creative thinking because sometimes the orders are simply wrong because the higher ups don’t have good intelligence. It is not in the best interest of the Marine Corps to have idiots running around. The things we were taught all had a reason, and it wasn’t to make us mindless morons.
People will believe what they want to believe however. All I can do is look at things from my perspective and know my truth. I’ve had to face a lot of truth when facing the Marine Corps, some of which is very painful and hard to see. But it had to be done so I could live with it all now. And I do live with it, in an aware fashion. So take it as you wish.
18 October 2007 at 14:02
I said Identity. Individual identity and the responsibility and accountiblility for decision making that goes with it. NO military group of any kind, can have independent decision making going on. You’re told what to do, when.
Note. Being a Marine, hasn’t made you more accepting and confident in yourself as a gay person.
18 October 2007 at 15:52
Being told what to do, when, occurs in any job. I don’t see any difference between the job I did in the Corps and the jobs I have done as a civilian. I was told when I worked, what I was to do at work, etc. And, I had to make decisions about how to do what I was told to do. I think you have a very mistaken idea of what life is like in the military.
And actually, the Marine Corps taught me very valuable lessons about accepting myself and being confident about who I am. Was I forced to hide it? Of course. But I was never ashamed of it. I had to decide what was most important, the truth or trying to find a way to survive in a bad situation. I chose the truth, because I didn’t see my situation improving. But that’s because of my workgroup, not the Corps as a whole. I know other gay people who have been able to go multiple enlistments without trouble.
Your assuming based on no actual experience with the Marine Corps. I think people find it easier to make the military the bad guy when they aren’t any different than many other civilian jobs. Actually, it was better in the Corps because if I didn’t do something right, I just got chewed out, or maybe some extra duty. But I couldn’t be fired and lose my livelihood like in the civilian world.
I think your opinions are based on bias. It’s ok, everyone has bias. But so far everything you’ve said does not match the reality of many people’s experiences in the military. It’s not that hard to maintain a strong sense of self if you went in with one. Like I said, the Marine Corps changed me in positive ways. It didn’t turn me into a mindless killer, it helped me see that there are many things that we don’t know. For instance, one of our drill instructors explained that the reason they are always yelling at us to pick up our feet is because, in a war time situation, if there is a chemical attack you kick up more dust, which carries the chemical, if you drag your feet. So for safety, you need to pick up your feet. Plus, if you’re trying to be quiet, it makes more noise and can cause you to trip when on uneven terrain. All important reasons. But that’s a lot to think about. So instead, as recruits, all we need to worry about is picking up our feet. This is why I say, there is a reason for everything, but not everyone needs to know the details. That’s why I willingly followed my drill instructors. They knew things that I didn’t know, and their orders were based on that information. That’s why it’s so important to have leaders that are trustworthy. It keeps things running smoothly. Those who have shown to make poor decisions also find that people aren’t so willing to follow. Because, again, we’re not trained to be mindless zombies.
But I’m rambling, so I’ll stop here.
19 October 2007 at 15:17
You’ve brought up some really interesting points. I never served in any branch of the military, so I have no personal experience with which to form an opinion. I do know that, as a gay man, of the friends I have, many have served in the military and are great individuals - both because of and in spite of those experiences. According to them. I just think they rock as people, regardless as to what they attribute their personal growth.
The military does get a bad rap. I think we, as a society, tend to blame the average Joe or Josephine in uniform for the policies made by the brass and we also tend to think of all soldiers as alike individuals, when they only function as alike because that seems to be part of the training.
I’ve seen as much diversity - intellectual, emotional and physical - among friends and family who’ve served in the armed forces as I have outside of it.
Thanks for sharing!
19 October 2007 at 15:19
You may think as you will, of course. I simply rlate this topic, of your emotional depdence ipon being a member of this group, to your other post about ‘ascension’ and why you are having the experience you are. Note what I posted about being rigidly tied to your Identity.
My perspective is coming from someone who was born with a healthy sense of Self Respect. The treatment in the marine core is abusive to individuality in the extreme and, you will one day have to deal the effects of it, when you surrender your ego attachments to it.
19 October 2007 at 17:52
Abuse is perceived. I have found peace for all the negative aspects. Therefore there are no repercussions, as I have moved beyond them. I’m quite surprised that you are so insistent on this. Remember, you don’t actually know. You think you know, but you don’t. You don’t know me, you don’t know my experiences, you don’t know what actually happens on a day to day basis in the military because there is no one experience. I can think of many worse experiences that people don’t consider to be worse in the normal civilian world. I know that I don’t know, but it sure sounds like you have a strong bias against something that you think you understand, but don’t. Yes, in theory, what you’re saying is true. But that’s not the reality of the situation. But, as many times as I’ve tried to speak about reality, it doesn’t matter, so it doesn’t seem like you care about reality, just your perception of how horribly evil the military is, without considering that there are many other experiences within the military. But that’s fine, everyone has their blind spots, this is clearly one of yours.
Loquacious, you’re very right. There are so many different kinds of people in the military. I don’t think civilians realize that. I’ve met some of the most amazing people in the Corps, and wouldn’t give that experience up for anything. I also met some assholes. Just like anywhere else.
I hope you’re doing alright. Haven’t stopped by your blog for a while due to my own time constraints. I’ll have to do that when I’m not working overtime. Take care!
19 October 2007 at 23:20
One meets ‘all kinds’ in the military. While in the army, I had a roomie who was straght out of high school and a natural athlete. His ‘world’ had expanded from his hometown to ‘the world’ after training and being in Europe. Another roomie was a four year college man working toward a specialty in Art Restoration — always cool to come in at the end of the day and see one whole wall turned into a mural depicting a scene from the Civil War. Third roomie was a smoker and a doper. Work week, he was squared away and in top shape — weekends (while off duty) he was the most laid back ‘dude’ one would meet. And those were all ‘roomies’ and not the other 300 folks who helped make our little corner of the world operate… cooks, mechanics, first termers and lifers.
More personalities and individuals than you can shake a stick at… and nearly all (ya, we did have some real slackers at times who hated what the army was about as soon as they signed up… most of those were not happy anywhere they were ((and some were told to join or go to jail. Some of *those* turned their lives around.. and some spent more time in the military jails)))
… practically all had healthy views of themselves, where they wanted to go after their tour and many had college and more planned out for their time ‘after serving’.
Volunteering is not an abdication of ’self’ to the system. They do ask for strict codes of conduct and would prefer immediate responses at times (hard to explain to someone who gets their head blown off while arguing — the ‘merits’ of hitting the dirt. In those cases, they are expected to ‘do it’ based on the trust of those who have ‘walked those roads before’ and lived to tell the tale.) On the other hand, points of view, logic, and smart discussion were always welcome when attacking tasks; pre-planning missions; and general ‘how to do things smarter and not harder’.
As Jax said, no different than most job environments.. except you can’t get pissed and walk away or not like it one morning and ‘quit’ (well, not easily). It takes the notion of ‘committment’ and holding to the promise, contract, and oath one swore upon entering… to serve and protect; uphold the honor of the service; ‘on call’ 24/7; to protect the peoples of the United States and uphold the Constitution.
No zombies take that oath who willing give of their time and life to honor that duty.
20 October 2007 at 14:17
Here’s the question…
How much of what you Valued and give meaning to…
is directly associated with your emotional NEED to physically DOMINATE?
For the emotional NEED to DOMINATE expresses inner weakness and surrender of POWER over Reality.
20 October 2007 at 14:18
Hoorah for surrendering of power!
20 October 2007 at 14:39
I don’t have any greater sense to dominate due to the Marine Corps. And, it’s something that I’m very aware of and work to control, as I have all my life. But surprisingly enough, I really don’t have much of a desire to dominate at all. I don’t have the urge to fight, I don’t have the desire to fight people, physically or even verbally. I’m a very non-confrontational person by nature. Even in all my years of karate I didn’t enjoy trying to win. Physically sparring was always about testing my ability to find openings - never about dominating the other person.
I don’t think you know me half as well as you think you do. But, I only put so much information on this, in a small window of time in my life.
And what you see as people surrendering power, we all see differently. I see it as having gained more power through the skills I gained, and what I learned about myself. I am far stronger mentally and emotionally for my experiences. Yes, I had to go through some rough patches to gain that strength, but that’s what was necessary for me to come into my own and find my power. It’s what a lot of people need to find themselves, which is why they go that route. There’s no one route to self discovery and empowerment. You need to remember that. Yes, you have some good information to pass along to people, and an understanding of your path and how it works. But you forget that your path does not apply to everyone. It’s something I have to constantly remind myself of too. It’s easy to think that your way is the right way, because it was for you. But when you really listen to people, you can see that it isn’t the only way.
20 October 2007 at 20:27
lol
My desire was… to not have to go to college for a while AND not go back to work. That and to ’see’ if I’d like being in the military ‘fill time’ since I was taking some ROTC classes… which would soon ask if I was willing to ’sign’ to be an officer. Since the officer commitment was a lot longer than a four year tour… did the enlisted thing first to ‘get a fell’….. that and not work or go to school.
Duh.. Universe has grand sense of humor.
After basic, was sent to linguistics school for a year; and additional training for another nine months after that. So much for ‘getting out of school’ for a while. DID get exposure to many places and many people and a lot of officers… from fresh lieutenants to multi-starred generals. Some good, some fair, some … well, should not have been officers to start with. Same for the enlisted ranks too.
After four years.. decided it was ‘time’ to go back and get a degree… and then decided if I wanted to ‘come back in’. Military did serve my purpose in one or two ways. After serving four years, it helped to pay for my final college years. Did travel ‘around the world’.. though not as much as I should have. Could have taken lots more mini-trips throughout Europe and the Med. Never did make it to NZ or Australia or Japan… maybe someday.
Still… never had an urge to ‘dominate’.. or that ‘being in the military’ was somehow ‘empowering’ over others or dehumanizing to ‘us’ who lived pretty normal lives.. even for wearing non-designer green suits. Even when I ‘climbed the ranks’… it was due to my knowledge, experience, and ability to express myself intelligently as much as ‘been there; done that (more than once)’ as compared to the ‘new kids’ who came after.
Not a lot of ‘chest beating’ past basic. Normally, the ones who are ‘into’ the whole idea of violence and dominance either ‘get an education’ during boot thanks to experienced drill sergeants (who have heard and seen most of ‘it all’
or from their fellow compatriots, who soon mature enough to see how stupid ‘monkey macho displays’. By the time a couple of years had gone by, I met very very few who were that way.
Now, when I went to Turkey and stayed at an air base….. there were a couple of hot shot jet fighter pilots who were all full of themselves. But, that’s sort of the ‘nature of the beast’ for jet fighter pilots of that time.
13 November 2007 at 10:34
I’m not a Marine yet and I beleve serve your friends, family, country. I have no problem with Marines. Carrie is one of my best friends. She’s a Marine and I’m proud of her!!
14 November 2007 at 22:33
I’m a former Marine and I agree with you completely.
Those here who speak of a lack of self respect or of a lack of individuality have no idea of what those two things mean, because they have never belonged to something greater than themselves.
They don’t know what it means to be a member of a great team of patriots and at the same time to not only respect oneself, but to respect one’s own individuality.
Individuality is worthless if it cannot be subjugated at the right moment in the interest of the greater good and without self respect that would be impossible.
I feel sorry for those here who have responded so negatively, but their cluelessness only makes me more proud to have been and to still be a United States Marine.
Semper Fidelis.
31 December 2007 at 20:55
Your loyalty to the group that gave you the ability to perceive yourself via its disciplinary ethic I admire. That disciplinary ethic the military instills in the individual is what can provide anyone true freedom — even from self.